très jeu des 7 erreurs comme montage...

par ailleurs j'adore également Perfect Blue mais Requiem for a dream m'avait profondément ennuyé...cette indifférenciation de photogrammes est fort trompeuse...

Pour ma part, je concède que DA est un vil imposteur (et suffisant avec ça)à la mise en scène quelque peu m'as-tu-vu, mais j'avoue que je suis amateur de ce genre de films choc, et je me souviens de l'état d'hébétude dans lequel il m'avait laissé après sa projection à Cannes (séance nocturne de minuit...)... Avec S., nous déambulions sur la Croisette sans piper mot... Après l'avoir revu, je continue à le défendre, car cette descente aux enfers produit toujours les mêmes effets chez moi... Même si, comme le billet de S. l'évoque, il pille chez d'autres des effets sans les citer... Pas seulement "Perfect Blue" (par ailleurs, excellent manga paranoïaque avec des idées très inventives de mise en scène, non sans rappeler l'atmosphère névrotique du "Glamorama" de B.E.Ellis. A quand un remake live ???!!!), mais aussi ce formidable clip de "The Box", starring Tilda Swinton, sans doute le meilleur morceau (et clip) de feu Orbital, dont DA avait déjà utilisé la musique pour son premier film, "Pi". Dans le clip, TS se meut dans un Londres fantômatique où les habitants évoluent autour d'elle en accéléré. Dans "Requiem...", lorsque Ellen Burstyn pète les plombs, elle se retrouve dans la rue à courir au hasard, et autour d'elle, les passants adoptent la même démarche que celle des personnages du clip d'Orbital...

quel oeil dame Sandrine ; vous êtes une sorte de police de l'image, you are magic darling

C'est amusant, en regardant ces photogrammes, on a l'impression que ceux de "Perfect blue" ont servi de story-board à "Requiem...".

Remarquable sens de l'observation, Sandrine. Je suis admiratif, vraiment !

"Requiem for a dream" à mon avis fait partie de ces films très frappants au premier abord, mais qui s'alourdissent et se démodent avec le temps : trop d'effets, trop d'esbroufe, trop de musique à fond, trop de mégalo... Je mets dans le même sac "Tommy", "Midnight Express", "Sweet sweet back badass song", "Trainspotting", "Brazil", tous ces films "cultes" pour certains et qui s'avèrent de plus en plus lourdingues jusqu'à n'être plus que des curiosités bizarres, de faux chefs d'oeuvre nanarisés.

Damien, je suis d'accord avec toi. il y a ces films qui comme le vin se bonifient avec le temps, quand on les rejetait en bloc à leur sortie, ceux qui restent intemporels, et ceux qui comportent une date de péremption. Si "Requiem..." appartient à cette dernière catégorie, pour ma part, ma version du film n'a pas encore atteint la dite-date... La musique de Klint Mansell, interprétée par le Kronos Quartet (toujours un plaisir de les voir en concert au théâtre de la Ville, soi dit en passant), souffre juste d'une surexploitation à toutes les sauces, comme les morceaux que Tarantino utilise dans ses films, aussitôt pillés pour des spots de pub ou pour des jingles TV... Cela n'enlève rien à sa qualité.

Maintenant, je fais la différence entre "chef d'oeuvre" et "film culte", sachant que pour moi, le film culte est avant tout porté aux nues par des fan(atique)s qui ne jurent que par les qualités de ce film, en leur sens, unique à bien des égards (pour faire très vite). "Apocapylpse now" est un chef d'oeuvre, "C'est arrivé près de chez vous" est un film culte.

Bien sûr Moland, le fait que ces films se démodent n'empêche pas que certains des éléments qui les composent demeurent, et "Perfect Day" de Lou Reed survivra sans doute à "Trainspotting" tout comme certains morceaux des Who au film indigeste de Ken Russell... Et ce n'est pas vrai seulement pour la musique : "Midnight Express" à mon avis a déjà perdu beaucoup de son impact, mais Brad Davis reste quand même un acteur extraordinaire.

Je répondais à ton commentaire précédent, ça va devenir incompréhensible !
Au fait, petite remarque pointilleuse à Sandrine : le terme de "manga" ne s'applique en principe qu'à des bandes dessinées, il faut plutôt parler de "japanime" ou d' "anime" à propos d'un dessin animé comme "Perfect Blue". Je m'excuse, mais qui c'est qu'est spécialiste de culture asiatique ici ?! (pas moi pourtant)

un peu tard; et puis trop d'alcool ingurgité mais pour ma part plus que réticent avec la notion de film culte.
On y reviendra aprs avoir dessoulé!

Eh bien, Tlön, est-ce un état pour se présenter ? Ce n'est pas la première fois que tu émets des réserves sur le phénomène "film culte". Je crois que pour amorcer le débat, tu devrais d'abord nous faire part de tes préventions. Mais demain sera un autre jour, la gueule de bois en moins ! :-)

Le film culte me paraît être l'apanage d'une communauté, comme le dit Moland. Le chef d'oeuvre est qualifié comme tel pour des raisons objectivées et formelles (ses qualités cinématographiques, pour faire vite : mise en scène, interprétation etc..). The Rocky Horror Picture Show est un film culte, mais pas un film de cinéma. Maintenant, des films cultes peuvent tout à fait être des chef d'oeuvre. A développer.

Cher Damien,
"anime" effectivement est plus approprié ! Mais je ne suis spécialiste de rien et encore moins en matière de culture asiatique. Disons que je suis amateur, au sens noble du terme. :-)

Cher MdP,
Merci ! Cette histoire de "police de l'image" me fait frémir car m'évoque immanquablement la censure. Je ne peux pas être de la police de l'image et faire des quizz interdits ! C'est antithétique, darling !

Cher Willy,
Il y a longtemps que j'avais débusqué la supercherie, mais je n'avais aucun moyen d'en faire la preuve par l'image. Je suis heureuse que le blog m'en donne l'occasion. Cette très courte séquence est vraiment calquée sur l'anime original : même découpage, même durée. C'est très curieux qu'Aronofsky n'ait pas eu de problème. Peut-être a-t-il eu l'autorisation du réalisateur japonais ? Je ne trouve cependant aucune trace de cela nulle part. Je suis allée poster sur des sites de fans de Requiem for a Dream pour en avoir le coeur net. On verra bien !

JS,
le film t'avait ennuyé ?! Réaction inattendue pour un film qui ne laisse pas indifférent, qu'on l'apprécie ou non ! Aimant beaucoup l'univers cafardeux de Selby Junior, mon intérêt était déjà au RDV. Je me suis pris le film en pleine figure. J'en ai même égaré ma paire de lunettes et pendant toute la durée du festival de Cannes 2000, j'ai erré dans le brouillard. En fait, ce putain de film m'a côuté 2000 balles. Et je passe l'interview désastreuse avec le réalisateur, un type suffisant qui, parce qu'il avait un rhume, s'est montré odieux. Je comprends aujourd'hui pourquoi, lorsque rentrant dans le détail de certaines scènes, il était sur la défensive !!

"The Rocky Horror... n'est pas un film de cinéma" : je ne comprends pas ce que ça veut dire ? Alors que c'est seulement dans une salle que ce film démontre l'étendue de son pouvoir : une sidérante adéquation à l'interactivité. Les caissières du studio Galande ne me démentiront pas.

Ouïe, ouïe, ouïe ! Le sujet est épineux, je vois ! Tu ne peux pas dire que ce film brille par ses qualités cinématographiques tout de même ?! Après, l'interactivité est indéniable. Cela nous amène progessivement à définir ce qu'est un film culte : film qui suscite un phénomène de société autour de lui...

Ben si justement, il n'y a pas plus "cinématographique" ! Le spectacle ne peut fonctionner que lors d'une vraie séance, où l'image est projetée sur l'écran, avec une partie des spectateurs initiée et l'autre qui découvre le phénomène. Tout autre support, télé, vidéo, DivX etc. lui fait perdre ce pouvoir. Quel autre film peut en dire autant ?

what a sexsational observation. when you die, please leave me your eyes, so i can see all of the magic in the world.

He Jon ! Thank you ! Have you heard about a Sacha Guitry 's movie called "Donne-moi tes yeux" (Give me your eyes) ? It looks like what you're asking for.

Damien,
J'ai mis la journée à comprendre mais tu me fais marcher bien sûr ! :-)
Tu as décidé de me faire tourner chèvre en prétendant que parce que le spectacle est dans la salle, le film est forcément une oeuvre de cinéma ! Zen, je suis restée ! A bientôt, Rocky Horror Picture Boy !

Désolé Sandrine si je t'ai tracassée avec une telle opinion, telle n'était pas mon intention, je ne croyais pas te rendre chèvre pour si peu... Bien sûr je comprends que selon toi, en dehors du dispositif qui s'est mis en place autour de lui, "The Rocky Horror..." n'est intrinsèquement pas un très grand film. Admettons, admettons... Mais c'est le plus naïvement du monde que je te demandais ce que tu entends par "film de cinéma" (tu n'y as pas répondu d'ailleurs) et pourquoi ce film là ne conviendrait pas. Le cinéma pour moi n'est pas une idée abstraite ou théorique, c'est avant tout la rencontre entre un public et un film projeté sur un écran dans une salle obscure. Qu'une séance de cinéma puisse être autre chose que la consommation d'un film par un public figé et muet (ou, dans le meilleur des cas riant ou pleurant aux moments prévus et applaudissant à la fin), voilà déjà qui me paraît fort digne d'intérêt. Qu'un film, par la manière dont il est conçu ( et je ne parle pas des savoureuses références qui passent par-dessus la tête de la plupart des gens, mais bien de mise en scène, de dialogues, de montage, de jeu des acteurs...) rende possible ce jeu incroyable de réappropriation et de détournement, voilà pour moi un grand moment de cinéma.

Mais peut-être n'as-tu jamais assisté ou participé à une séance vraiment réussie de TRHPS ? Je veux dire que ça ne consiste pas seulement à balancer de l'eau et du riz sur ses voisins et à réciter les répliques comme je l'ai vu parfois, ça peut vraiment devenir une autre représentation par-dessus le film, un moment vraiment inoubliable. Enfin je te raconte ça, c'était il y a au moins 15 ans, je ne sais pas ce que ça donne aujourd'hui...

J'avais un petit ami vraiment fan de TRHPS ou de films comme Spinal Tap. Je lui suis reconnaissante de m'avoir fait découvrir ce cinéma là mais j'ai été très soulagée de le quitter ! :-)
Une oeuvre de cinéma ? Eh bien, pour moi c'est un film dont l'expression est essentiellement visuelle, c'est-à-dire que les plans, le montage sont suffisamment signifiants pour éviter des dialogues inutiles. Cf le cinéma d'Hitchcock ou de Claire Denis.
Je suis moins sybilline ? En tout cas, de mon côté, j'ai bien saisi ton propos ou comment la représentation interagit avec le spectateur.

Ah oui d'accord, c'est le fameux credo énoncé par Hitchcock à Truffaut - soit dit en passant, ça ne les a pas empêchés l'un et l'autre de faire des films excessivement bavards... J'évite en général de dire tout le mal que je pense de ces deux-là ( je suis toujours obligé de me justifier pendant des heures face aux gardiens du temple ), mais c'est vrai que leur livre d'entretiens est passionnant, et je partage cette idée que le visuel prime. Mais enfin il y a de superbes exceptions : Hallelujah, All about Eve, La poison de Guitry, La maman et la putain...

Tout à fait, ça vient bien des Entretiens H/T mais l'inscription de dialogues dans la durée donne lieu, et je suis d'accord avec toi, à des films remarquables comme ceux que tu cites.
Des films "bavards" ou trop explicatifs chez Hitchcock ? Là, j'objecterais que Hitch devait se plier aux contraintes commerciales imposées par les producteurs ! D'accord, en revanche, en ce qui concerne Truffaut que je ne révère pas en tant que réalisateur, loin s'en faut, même si des films comme Les Deux Anglaises et le Continent ou La Femme d'à côté me bouleversent.

fascination, sandrine
traumatisé à l'idée d'avoir pu te vexer sur ma lecture parallèle de tes articles, je parcours ton blog, te lis, te lis encore, et là, soudain, cette révélation
les deux dvd chez moi, la hâte d'aller revoir les scènes incriminées
je convie autour de moi mes collègues de travail qui, fascinés, enthousiastes, s'emballent : mais quel est ce site?
voilà, pour me faire pardonner ma légèreté, je fais des émules
et rends hommage à ta culture cinématographique
respectueusement,
lh.

C'était une taquinerie de ma part bien sûr, cher L.H! Je ne suis nullement vexée ! J'aime simplement jouer les outragées ! Merci de ton intérêt que tu communiques de plus à ton entourage. Ces deux scènes sont très brèves. Si tu es remonté dans ce blog, tu verras que j'ai eu l'explication de ces curieuses similitudes : Aronofsky avait acheté les droits de Perfect BLue. A bientôt....

vois-tu? je vais trop vite
lisant davantage, prenant davantage mon temps, j'aurais trouvé moi-même l'explication que tu as la gentillesse de me redonner ici
et je me serais épargné un ps sur "soleil noir" puisqu'à l'évidence, chaque message reçu sur chacun de tes articles doit faire résonner sur ton blog une sonnette virtuelle t'en avertissant -ma curiosité de la chose informatique me perdra comme elle en a perdu tant (ou sauvé, question de pilule -la bleue ou la rouge?)
amicalement,
lh.

Effectivement, je suis avertie de tous les mouvements sur ce blog. En fait, ce blog est un oeil qui vous regarde. Tremblez !

Juste une toute petite chose...Je suis tombé ici par hasard, mais je voudrais juste préciser une chose: Si la scène de Requem... est fort identique a l'animé, c'est fais exprès...Aronofsky était fan de Perfect Blue, et voyait dans cette scène la raison même de la détresse de J.Connelly...Ni une, ni deux, il a acheté les droits d'adaptation cinematográfique (ce qui lui permet de recycler des scènes déjà utilizées tel quel...). Il n'en feras surment pas un film, mais au moins, Requiem... y a gagné

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