30/3/2007 Femmes de pouvoir. De Catherine II à Marie-Antoinette.
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bravo
lh.
En revanche, rien là-dessus dans le livret qui accompagne le DVD de Marie-Antoinette.
Nous restons tout de même dans le domaine de la citation. La vision "bonbon rose" de Sofia Coppola modernise les motifs de L'Impératrice Rouge, un délire visuel baroque. Le film de Sternberg est souvent très drôle (il faut voir les trouvailles pour contourner la censure) quand Marie-Antoinette apparait comme son versant mélancolique.
Carlito,
Merci pour ces suggestions. Concernant la 1ère, le rapprochement a déjà été fait. Quant à la seconde, il ne me paraît pas pertinent de citer le film de Wim Wenders, parti sur les traces d'Ozu. Dans mon souvenir, la vision du cinéaste ne dépasse pas celle d'un touriste de base, quand dans Lost in Translation, le Japon est une prison dorée, toute de verre et de néons, une abstraction.
La référence à Marker est beaucoup plus juste. Au risque moi aussi de verser dans la citation (l'auto-citation en l'occurence), je te renvoie au billet que j'avais fait en 2004 (3 ans déjà !) sur cette correspondance évidente :
http://contrechamp.kaywa.com/p18.html
Cette idée d' emprenter la geometrie dun plan pour lui donner un tout autre sens dans un contexte different est fascinante.
Comme dans certains moments de Sternberg, Coppola fait confiance aux signes purement plastiques pour (presque) tout dire, un beau jeu des aparences et des ellipses. Le recit de "Marie Antoinette" est devore par des effets d'ecriture et de surface, qui sont les seuls enonces solides du film, tout le reste n'est qu'un enregistrement imprecis des flux hedonistes, ou melancoliques, ou quelques fois liriques.
"dans Lost in Translation, le Japon est une prison dorée, toute de verre et de néons, une abstraction."
et dans Marie Antoinette, Versailles est une prison doree aussi, de jardins, de gateaux, de couleurs. la meme abstraction, mais avec un hors-champ historique qui attend son moment d'explosion.
Il se dit que le thème principal de Bernhard Kaun, transposé à 440 Hz, puis joué à l'envers correspond exactement aux premières mesures de "Honk Kong Garden"
Cette Coppola a vraiment tout pompé...
J'ai beau camper sur mes positions concernant Marie-Antoinette (j'aime beaucoup le film que j'ai vu 3 fois), vous avez logé le doute en moi. Une première en 3 années de blog et surtout une capitulation difficilement acceptable pour quelqu'un d'aussi entêtée que moi.
La force de vos arguments (on ne peut pas nier que ce film est le plus faible de la filmographie de Sofia Coppola) y est pour beaucoup bien sûr. Mais surtout mes recherches demeurent infructueuses. Sofia Coppola, sauf erreur de ma part, ne mentionne à aucun moment la référence à Sternberg. Je n'en trouve nulle trace dans Positif (merci pour la référence FF), Les Cahiers, le CD d'accompagnement éducatif (le film a reçu le prix de l'Education nationale), le dossier de presse et enfin le fascicule joint au DVD. Mais si quelqu'un venait à trouver cette référence, qu'il se manifeste !!
Carlito m'a dit avoir poussé le vice jusqu'à revoir les 2 films. Les emprunts (ou "pillages" dirait Gilles très remonté) ne lui ont pas sauté aux yeux. Pourtant, et au risque de me répéter, les films cheminent de la même manière. J'aurais même pu ajouter d'autres photogrammes et croiser d'autres séquences. Comme celle où Dietrich et ses suivantes cavalent dans le palais et s'amusent. Il y aussi le bandeau noir transparent que porte sur les yeux Kirsten Dunst lors du bal. Il est blanc chez Sternberg et masque les yeux de Dietrich et de ses suivantes qui jouent avec les offciciers. Etc...
Versailles, prison où s'ébroue une jeunesse dorée. Hollywood par ricochets et sa jet set désenchantée.
En revanche, je ne suis pas d'accord avec vous FF quand vous affirmez que "ce cinéma manque cruellement de regard, c’est-à-dire d’une vision du monde qui ne s’arc-boute pas uniquement sur des tics formels, des effets de style, des clichés discursifs, toute une imagerie publicitaire".
Le film rencontre le contemporain, prend en compte l'altérité. Souvenez-vous de cette scène de balcon magnifique où paraît Marie-Antoinette qui s'incline devant le peuple en colère. Le monde est bien là, incarné. Champ/contrechamp.
Par ailleurs, j'ai toujours du mal avec ces catégorisations hâtives, utilisées à tort et à travers dans la presse. Le paradigme "imagerie publicitaire" (aussi loin que cela puisse me parler) me parait inadéquat ici. Le film n'est ni esthétisant (bien que très travaillé visuellement), ni caractérisé par un découpage très cut. Au contraire, les scènes se dilatent. Qu'entendez-vous par là ?
Frédéric,
Peux-tu développer ce point sur la musique ? Ca me parait autant tiré par les cheveux qu'accablant !
La reflexion qui me vient à lire ces échanges très argumentés, c'est que le "script doctor" de Miss Coppola connait bien ses classiques...
S'agissant de la musique... il se pourrait que mes arguments soient assez spécieux... mais un film dont la BOF propose du Siouxsie & The Banshees joué par un orchestre baroque mérite le plus grand respect... et mon admiration...
Croyez bien que j'abonde dans votre sens quant à l’usage surfait de « l’imagerie publicitaire », et mon expression était sans doute maladroite. En fait, je voulais dire par là que, partant du principe (probablement discutable) que Sofia Coppola n’a pas grand-chose à dire mais beaucoup à montrer, son film se transforme rapidement en une sorte de publicité de Sofia pour Coppola (ou l’inverse). D’où l’imagerie : le plan est moins le tenant lieu de l’altérité que le réceptacle d’un regard satisfait qui ne reflète rien d’autre que lui-même, sa propre satisfaction à filmer et être regardé. Au-delà, son imaginaire est aussi truffé d'images toutes faites, d'emprunts visuels issus de la pub, sans que ces derniers soient détournés ou repensés. Il y avait déjà dans 'Lost In Tanslation' cette tentation-là, le film donnant l'impression par moments d'être une pub pour les petites culottes. Le plus cruel, je trouve, c’est que se dessine aussi dans ce film un autoportrait qui en dit long sur le rapport qu’entretient la cinéaste avec le monde, constamment mis à distance, évité, éludé (vous me direz que l’enfermement est un de ses thèmes de prédilection, mais reste à savoir – et ce film me fait m’interroger à ce sujet – s’il ne cache pas en réalité une impuissance à se projeter en dehors de sa bulle rassurante).
autre chose : as-tu remarqué que dans le film tous les acteurs français sans exception ont des personnages antipathique et pleins de fatuité (ce qui n'est jamais le cas des acteurs américains)...quand je te dis qu'elle ne sait pas comment faire avec l'altérité...!
D'un autre côté, je ne lui jette pas la pierre sur ce point, l'altérité, c'est vraiment une chose difficile à appréhender non ?
"Dans "Lost in Translation", une opération du scénario assez désagréable permet au film de tracer une frontière entre deux types de personnages, les Auhentiques (Bill Murray et Scarlett Johansson) dont la dimension mélancolique (ou "mélancomique") serait le signe d'une plus grande lucidité, et les Ridicules - la plupart des seconds rôles japonais, tous plus excités les uns que les autres; le mari de Scarlett Johansson; la femme de Bill Murray, obsédée par la couleur de sa nouvelle moquette; et surtout, la jeune starlette hollywoodienne en visite à Tokyo, pleine d'une vitalité joyeuse et forcément débile. Dès lors, la dépression n'apparaît pas tant comme une "lassitude de soi" qui "vise l'existence même", selon l'expression de Levinas, que comme une complaisance aristocratique et résignation altière, un ressassement narcissique que l'on a envie de secouer."
in PANIC n°2 - JAN./FEV. 06
Le comble étant que Sofia Coppola feint de dénoncer ces mêmes "complaisance aristocratique" et "résignation altière" dans le contexte qui leur est propre via l'empathie pour Marie-Antoinette, alter-ego de la pauvre petite fille riche qui trompe l'ennui; qu'on en juge par cet échange :
Marie-Antoinette : This is ridiculous.
Comtesse de Noailles : This, Madame, is Versailles.
Ce texte de Stéphane Bou est effectivement très pertinent (merci, Carlito).
Sinon, je me souviens bien de notre conversation, JS. D'ailleurs, si tu cliques sur les liens, tu retrouveras trace de nos échanges antérieurs.
Sofia Coppola prépare un nouveau film : elle va mettre en scène une histoire d'amour lesbienne. Peut-être trouvera-t-elle là le matériau pour faire cet effort d'ouverture au monde ? Même si, je le répète, l'auto-contemplation mélancolique ("l'enfermement que c'est d'être une femme") à l'oeuvre dans son cinéma, loin de me heurter, me bouleverse.
Qui plus est, l’apparente gémellité ne tient plus dès lors que l’on regarde les deux films dans « la durée » (normale) et que l’on s’attache à l’enjeu de chacun : rien à voir ! (du tout). L’arrêt sur image systémique s’avère ici un procédé fallacieux, dans la mesure où il trahit totalement la projection en elle-même et le film dans son ensemble (sans parler de la notion de « plan »). C’est comme si vous réduisiez une œuvre littéraire à chacun de ses mots ou à chacune de ses phrases… N’oubliez pas qu’une analyse pertinente doit être en mesure de concilier le détail à l’ensemble et l’ensemble au détail, ce qui n’est point le cas ici (d’ailleurs, plusieurs de vos commentaires entrent en contradiction…). L’exercice qui est le vôtre (arrêt sur image à un moment choisi) pourrait être dupliqué sur n’importe quelle paire de film traitant d’un sujet voisin, et n’apporte aucune lumière sur l’un comme sur l’autre, dans la mesure où vous évacuez totalement la perspective d’ensemble. Quoi de commun entre Sternberg et Miss Coppola, hormis les quelques photogrammes ici « scientifiquement » prélevés ? Rien. Avez-vous essayé de soumettre pareil traitement à d’autres de leurs films respectifs ? Non ? Vous devriez… Car la « preuve par l’image » n’est l’affaire que des publicitaires ou des journalistes, tandis que la « preuve par le plan et par le sens » ne concerne que le cinéma… Aucune attaque dans ce commentaire, soyez-en sure, juste une remarque de méthode qui me tenait à cœur. Bien à vous, et au plaisir de vous lire.
Vanessa D.
Je n'ai aucune leçon de méthode à recevoir, puisque le travail que vous me reprochez de ne pas avoir fait a largement été fait en amont. J'ai fréquenté suffisamment la filmographie de Sternberg et de Coppola fille et père (lequel papa est grand admirateur du cinéaste allemand et "l'école de cinéma" de sa fille selon les propos mêmes de cette dernière) avant de m'autoriser ce croisement.
La proximité entre les deux films ne tient pas en un rapprochement d'images fallacieux. Pour votre gouverne, sachez qu'aucun des photogrammes n'a été recadré. Ils s'offrent ainsi littéralement. On parle bien de "plan" ici, non ? Et de leur composition. Maintenant, les scènes ne sont pas rythmées de la même manière. Pour autant, les enjeux mêmes de ces séquences ne sont pas si éloignés.
Je ne vous rejoins pas du tout lorsque vous affirmez "que la proximité des sujets envisagés implique nécessairement la concordance des photogrammes, dans la mesure où ledit sujet passe (presque) nécessairement par plusieurs « passages obligés »."
Cela revient à dire qu'à sujet (historique) égal, traitement égal ? Est-ce que le Marie-Antoinette de Jean Delannoy avec Michèle Morgan emprunte à L'Impératrice Rouge ? A aucun moment ! (Car oui, j'ai pris soin aussi de voir ce film là). C'est pourtant l'intimité de la reine qui prime également dans ce film raté !
Simple remarque de bon sens, donc.
Neanmoins, votre réponse ne saurait en aucun cas satisfaire votre lectorat le plus exigent, qui se demande bien ce que le cinéma de Miss Coppola peut entretenir de commun avec celui de Sternberg... La sélection d'images arrêtées ne tient-elle pas de quelque arbitraire, s'agissant d'un FILM ?
Je vous le répète, faite l'exercice avec deux autres films éloignés dans le temps et s'attachant à des sujets voisns... Alors vous obtiendrez les mêmes "coincidences fatales"... (des images, qui ne sont pas des plans - relisez Daney et autres...)
Cordialement,
VD.
Sachez que Sofia Coppola travaille précisément à partir "d'images arrêtées "de films. C'est son fameux livre de style qui l'aide à définir avec ses techniciens l'univers visuel de ses films. Vous n'avez pas à m'apprendre la différence entre un plan et un arrêt sur image, au passage.
Manifestement, vous n'avez pas pris le soin de voir les deux films récemment. Je n'ai pas à revenir sur ce qui fait que les deux oeuvres dialoguent, de façon évidente.
Je suis prête à faire toutes les expériences cinématographiques auxquelles vous m'invitez. A cette seule restriction qu'il faut que vous m'apportiez la preuve de leur intérêt.
Pour avoir visionné des films "voisins" (vous n'avez rien à dire sur le Marie-Antoinette de Delannoy ?), je n'y ai décélé peu ou aucune des "coïncidences fatales" que vous mentionnez comme des évidences.
Alors donnez-nous des exemples ou lieu d'asséner en permanence. Je veux du concret et idéalement, des photogrammes aussi formellement proches que ceux que j'ai pu mettre en exergue ici.
On vous attend et de pied ferme. Et cessez avec ce ton supérieur et condescendant. On est ici pour échanger.
Pour revenir au sujet principal, Vanessa, je ne suis pas du tout d'accord avec vous non plus. Un même thème n'implique absolument pas le même traitement et heureusement ! Est-ce que Coppola filme Dracula comme Murnau filmait Nosferatu ? Je ne pense pas du tout.
J'ai par ailleurs trouver, en regardant Metropolis, de nombreuses similitudes avec des films d'anticipation ou de science-fiction ultérieurs qui ne partageaient pas exactement le même thème, le 5ème élément ou Dark city par exemple. Peut-on vraiment croire à une autre coïncidence ? Je crois que les réalisateurs avaient forcèment vu ce classique et les plans larges sur l'immense ville en témoignent.
Vous ne trouvez donc pas troublantes ces ressemblances dans Marie-Antoinette ? L'angle de prise de vue, la profondeur de champ, les formes, la position des corps et l'espression des visages.
Non il n'y avait pas qu'UNE seule manière de filmer ce visage par la fenêtre du carosse. On aurait pu imaginer par exemple que la caméra soit légèrement en arrière par rapport au personnage ou bien en légère contre-plongée. Or il est exactement identique dans les deux films.
Je ne crois pas à la coïncidence. Chaque plan est pensé. Chaque raccord pesé au montage. La chance a peu de place même si, en effet, certains élèments arrivent par hasard au tournage.
Je termine avec un article de Bergala dans Nul mieux que Godard auquel j'ai immédiatement pensé en lisant ces commentaires. L'article s'appelle "La réminiscence ou Pierrot avec Monika". Il monre justement comment les liens s'établissent entre deux films (pourtant bien différent dans leur scénario) par la réminiscence. Il y a l'emprunt conscient, le copiage, le pillage, la citation et la réminiscence. Bergala explique avec des exemples concrets et précis comment Godard, dans Pierrot le fou, emprunte inconsciemment à Bergman ,dans Un été avec Monika. Et réminiscence inconsciente ne veut pas dire hasard. Godard aime beaucoup Bergman et les rapprochements sont évidents.
Je vous citerai les passages si vous le souhaitez, mais je m'aperçois que j'ai déjà trop écrit. Il me semblait intéressant de faire ce parallèle. J'espère ne pas m'être trop égarée.
Céline, signer ses commentaires "cordialement" comme si on venait de rédigerune note de service pour ses agents communaux, sur un blog, je trouve ça particulièrement condescendant.
Le contenu du commentaire de Vanessa est effectivement un avis, son ton est supérieur.
Sofia, thanks for this. You'll shut everyone's mouth. Who are you anyway ? ;)
L'intérêt ici n'est pas tant la place, la position du cinéaste dans ce rapprochement que celle de la rédactrice et du lecteur...il en va ici comme dans les films...les plus interessants étant, à mon avis, ceux qui laissent une place, interrogent la position du spectateur
D'autre part, dans l'art les choses circulent par ricochet, les gestes, les esthétiques se reproduisent de manière souterraine, sans toujours avoir conscience de leur proximité
Continuez à prendre des risques, à oser...c'est la meilleure manière de faire avancer les choses pour soi et pour les autres
J'avoue un dédoublement de personnalité soudain qui me fit me prendre, une minute, pour Mlle Coppola. Désolée... Je ne recommencerai plus !
Philippe,
Merci pour vos mots. Je pense qu'effectivement en art les oeuvres se nourrissent d'influences plus ou moins souterraines.
D’ailleurs, Akira Kurosawa affirmait : « le cinéma ressemble tellement aux autres arts ; s’il y a des caractéristiques éminemment littéraires, il y a aussi des caractéristiques théâtrales, un aspect philosophique, des attributs empruntés à la peinture, à la sculpture, à la musique ». Dont acte.
Je n'ai pas la prétention de faire autorité (je ne suis pas prof de fac ou chercheuse de cinéma) mais de proposer, spéculer.
Le propos de "Vanessa" n'était pas inintéressant. Bien au contraire, mais j'en désapprouve le ton.
Son commentaire ouvrait la voie à des réflexions passionnantes sur la relation du détail à l'ensemble. En l'occurence, même si une image arrêtée ne rend pas compte du plan, il me faut réaffirmer que dans les deux oeuvres dont il est question ici, c'est le cas. Car dans la durée du plan même, les films dialoguent. Particulièrement dans une scène : le voyage en carrosse. Plan sur le visage des actrices à travers la vitre, travellings latéraux sur des bois, retour sur les visages. Pour les autres séquences, c'est moins vrai, en effet. Je déplore que la dite contributrice n'ait pas souhaité, à ce jour, étayer ses affirmations.
Pour sur il y a que parce qu'elle s'apelle Coppola qu'on lui a laisser faire ce film ! en tout cas de cette manière là...
Sandrine Marques, la passion du cinéma en ligne / Une cinéphilie exigeante qui inclut tous les genres
LE MONDE du 09 avril !!!
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-651865,36-893610@51-891889,0.html
C'est un article très élogieux mais quelle expérience étrange de voir mon nom de famille dans le titre !
Je vais donc communiquer là-dessus puisque me voilà démasquée...
très belle article en tout cas ;-)
Voilà qui me fait regretter mes passages par ce site un peu trop espacés.
Que ces lignes élogieuses dans un journal à grand tirage ne te fasse pas te relacher.
Bon vent Mlle Marques !
Il va falloir revoir votre notion du temps, mademoiselle, les lecteurs réclament...
En tous les cas, respect. C'est Vanessa D. (Vanessa Demouy?) qui va devoir changer de ton.
Je ne me relâche pas, bien au contraire ! (Enfin on va essayer et en plus, c'est bientôt le Festival de Cannes...).
Nadine,
Vous êtes ici la bienvenue.
Orphée,
Enfin, les 3 mois de prison...vous voulez dire par là que vous avez achevé de regarder les 2 saisons de Prison Break ?
Mon âge comme mon visage ou ce que je mange ne seront bientôt plus un secret à ce rythme là. On pourra dire que j'aurais tenu bon pendant 3 ans dans mon obstination à préserver ma vie privée. Quant à Vanessa, elle se cache ?
Félicitations pour cet excellentissime blog que je découvre à peine.
NP
Merci et bienvenue ! Je vous mets en lien directement. Votre blog est très personel. J'aime beaucoup.
Elles sont un peu injustes, je trouve ces attaques contre le cinéma de Sophia Coppola taxé de vide, de publicitaire, d'artificiel...
La superficialité ressemble plus à un thème qu'à un défaut de son cinéma.
Pour moi, si je puis juste apporter une petite remarque légère comparée à l'ensemble des analyses qui précèdent, l'oeuvre de Coppola fille me frappe par sa sincérité, son anti roublardise, qui n'exclut pas la naïveté, mais qui avant tout m'émeut. Elle poursuit à chaque film son travail de la matière juvénile avec un réel brio. Je ressens son cinéma comme une étude constante des désillusions de l'adolescence, d'un fossé constant avec l'âge adulte, d'une impossibilité de grandir. Ses trois films respirent une irrémédiable mélancolie, un doux désespoir.
Articiel cet égocentrisme adolescent ? peut-être, mais plein de doutes, et surtout très triste, métaphore d'un avenir dans le brouillard. C'est un cinéma dans lequel les sourires dissimulent beaucoup de tristesse.
Plus spécifiquement, pour Marie Antoinette, j'avais énormément apprécié la manière dont l'anachronisme musical cherchait - parfois maladroitement il est vrai - à faire le pont entre toutes les jeunesses, comme pour stigmatiser le même déchirement d'une époque à l'autre.
Une dernière remarque pour les références : en ce qui concerne Lost In translation, il m'avait semblé (mais c'est lointain) y voir beaucoup de rémiscences à "One From the Heart" de son père, un peu comme si elle décidait elle aussi de faire une ode aux néons urbains.
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